Peering Behind the Curtain with Michael Taft

[gentle serene music] Tantra Illuminated with Dr. Christopher Wallis is a journey through the depths of the human experience as viewed through the lens of the tradition called Nondual Shaiva Tantra. This multi-format podcast delves into the fascinating world of classical tantra and its intersections with philosophy, neuroscience, psychology, human development, and the broader world of spirituality. [music fades out] Today's episode is a conversation, and it's one of my favorites ever recorded for this podcast. I'm once again speaking with Michael Taft, a friend and fellow teacher of spirituality. He's also the author of "The Mindful Geek" and host of "The Deconstructing Yourself Podcast." Instead of him interviewing me or vice versa, this is a peer-to-peer conversation about some of the hard-won insights that we've gathered in our decades of mutual teaching experience and how we've both been humbled by that experience compared to when we were younger teachers. I think you'll find it fascinating. We definitely talk about some things not usually talked about explicitly or openly. So join me as we peer behind the curtain. I'm here with Michael Taft. I'm tempted to say the great Michael Taft even if you decline that offer.

Greatly smelly, you know, according to my family. [both chuckling]

No, you know, I, I hear from folks all the time what a, what a great teacher you are and, um, just how s- how skillful in, in pedagogy and, you know, um, you've, you've got the presence of sort of the wise elder figure. Um-

This, this-- I, I, I swear to God I'm not just trying to be humble. This just cracks me up, you know what I mean? I never, I never think of myself in that way at all. Uh, but, but thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Yeah. Well, and of course, yeah, the, the, the student, uh, has a certain amount of projection.

Indeed.

But some of it, I think, is also genuine appreciation of the impact you have on the student, you know?

Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. I'm curious how you work with the projection part. I mean, um, it's something that I noticed very early on and, and of course I've, I... My original tradition or one of the main traditions I've worked in is a, you know, guru tradition so I'm used to being the student in a guru situation and understand how that can get projectiony. Um, but-

Yep

... especially because I'm not trying to say that I'm a fully enlightened siddha or something. I'm just saying, "Hey, I can show you some stuff and know some stuff," and, you know, may have some stuff to share. I really don't feel comfortable like, uh, accepting the any form of guru adulation, you know? I've, I've been around-

Oh no. Yeah

... uh, let, uh, just to put it in these ter- [chuckles] these terms, the terms I think of it in which is I've been around a real guru, you know, who really is a siddha and has, as far as I'm concerned, superpowers and know what that feels like. And so I do my best to, um, to pop that bubble. And it's funny 'cause I know you know this Harish, but it's very often the case that if you ... It's like, uh, B- Monty Python's Life of Brian. Like the more you try to pop the bubble out loud on purpose, it just feeds into it. Uh, you