Episode 17: Weapons of Math Destruction, with Cathy O’Neil

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Welcome back to Dreaming Against the Machine. I'm your host, Adam Becker. This week's guest is Cathy O'Neill. She is a mathematician, an algorithmic auditor, and the author of Weapons of Math Destruction, among other books and essays. Kathy is also a friend and was one of the people who first made me aware of the idea of algorithmic bias and the fact that computer systems do not just neutrally enforce rules, but are tools that are used to exercise power. And in fact, I remember saying, Back when her book, Weapons of Math Destruction, first came out, I went to see her speak. And she said something that has stuck with me now for over a decade. She said that a friend of hers asked her why she wrote a book about math. And she said, I didn't write a book about math. I wrote a book about power. So with that, here's Kathy O'Neill. Kathy, welcome to Dreaming Against the Machine. Thank you, Adam. I'm glad to be here. So, Kathy, you, I mean, how do I even describe you? I say that a lot on this show. I should probably stop saying that because I know who my guests are. I just... I'm happy to introduce myself, Adam. Yeah, why don't you introduce yourself? I should just have my guests do that.

Yeah, I know more about me than you do.

That's true. Yeah. I mean, I know a bit about you, but yeah.

If I forget anything that you want to mention, then jump on in. But I'm a mathematician turned finance quant, turned data scientist, turned occupier, turned author. And now I have a company that audits algorithms for harm writ large. And most of my clients at this point are attorneys general and other law firms. I basically work as an expert for lawsuits that sue companies for harming people using algorithms.

Okay, I am going to say something. One of your books is called Weapons of Math Destruction, which in addition to being an