Episode 9: Algorithmic Bias, with Safiya Noble

[instrumental music] Welcome back to Dreaming Against the Machine. I'm your host, Adam Becker. This week's guest is Safiya Noble, a professor at UCLA and my friend, and someone who I've wanted to have on this podcast since I started it, because she is someone who was very, very early to the conversation on algorithmic bias and problems in the tech industry, and has been really good not only at sounding the alarm on that, but also building a community around it. I've only known her actually for a few months, but it feels like I've known her for longer because she's, she's just a very warm and genuine person. And also we're both very angry about many of the same things, which is actually kind of how we met, as I explain in our interview. So, it was a really great conversation, and I hope you enjoy it. Let's get to it. Safiya, welcome to Dreaming Against the Machine.

Thanks, Adam. So great to be here.

No, I'm really glad that, uh, we were able to find the time for this. So, wow, wow. So how do I introduce you? You wear so many hats.

Too many, and that's a problem. [laughs]

Yeah, it's true. I think of you as a professor and research rock star.

Aw, that's nice.

And author, um, and just all around wonderful person who tries to help the community of people fighting against the power of big tech.

You know, I, when I was in high school, I did one of that, uh, what color is your parachute, you know, the career center.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

... your senior year trying to like get you-

Yeah

... on a career path. And, um, I failed to land on any meaningful career based on my interests, with the exception of rock star.

[laughs]

That's literally what the damn thing said. Are you serious?

Yes.

But I kept seeing her shit, so here we are.

[laughs] Yes.

I, I guess-

I mean [laughs]

... I guess this is like the next closest thing I could get, which is to run my mouth all day as a professor. I don't know.

That, and, uh, and you moonlight doing, uh, standup comedy.

I do moonlight doing standup, yes.

Yeah.

Now the world knows.

[laughs]

I guess we can't keep things a secret. Thanks, Adam.

If you want, if you want us to cut that in the final-

No, it's fine

... we can. [laughs]

[laughs] It's fine. You gotta be there to see it.

Yeah, no, I, I need to come down to LA and see it.

Yeah.

Yeah. But yeah-

Yeah

... you're a professor at UCLA, and also the author of Algorithms of Oppression, and I'm probably forgetting things that you would want me to say about you.

Feel like that's good.

And we met on a panel in Washington, DC, oh, God, the better part of a year ago now, yeah.

A very spicy panel. Yes.

Yes. [laughs]

I was in awe-

Yes

... because let me tell you, I'm usually the-

Yeah

... spicy one, and then I was like, "Okay, chili pepper. What is happening-

[laughs]

... over here with Adam?" Oh my gosh, I felt like at one point I was like, "I gotta like raise the ante, I gotta..." And then I was like, "Let's just let him cook, just because there's no way."

[laughs]

I mean, he's got it on fire. I'm here. I'm with him. [laughs]

[laughs]

That's kind of what it turned into. [laughs]

That makes me so happy. [laughs]

[laughs] Oh, yeah.

'Cause I think of you as like the-

My favorite part of that day was, uh, the woman standing up and trying