Dan Hamermesh - Time, Beauty, and What Economics Gets Wrong About Work

Why do Americans work so much more than people in other rich countries? What does it actually mean to live a good life in society organized around work? My guest today is Dan Hammermesh, one of the most influential labor economists of the last 50 years. Dan's work has explored how we spend our time, discrimination, beauty premiums, and the economics of leisure. He has a rare ability to take everyday aspects of life that most people overlook and reveal the economic forces underneath them. Here's our talk. Welcome, Dan, to the Economics of Work. I think of you as one of the most expansive labor economists, really pioneering the field, getting into some interesting topics, time, beauty, discrimination. So it's a pleasure to have you and welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

Cool. OK, so so I want to I want to get into this question of leisure and work and sort of how those interact. So, as you know, almost 100 years ago, John Maynard Keynes in 1930 published The Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren, where he predicted we'll be working 15 hour weeks in 100 years and otherwise living a life of leisure. Does he still have time? Is he right? Is he wrong? Where do we stand? How do you grade him?

On that one, I'd give him probably a D minus. Wow. Harsh. Not an F only because it takes guts to make predictions. Although it's easier to do it if you're not going to be alive to have your mistakes pointed out to you, which obviously he knew he wouldn't be. No, we're nowhere near that. In fact, it's really quite remarkable. And the U.S., by the way, is the worst culprit of this among rich countries. Heck, in the late 70s, we were in the middle of rich countries in terms of hours worked per year. Currently, we are the most hours worked per year. People don't realize that. Oh, Japanese work harder. No, they don't. They work less than we do. And the central European countries, France, Germany, they work much, much less. And that's a change in 50 years. We haven't cut back in this country.

You said the worst. Is that a bad thing? Like, why do you think that is?

Yes, that's absolutely a bad thing for the following reason. The purpose of life, in my view, is to enjoy things. Very few people get pleasure out of their work time. I do. I'm totally neurotic. I mean, I'm not even being paid for anything, but I still work half time. I would call it work, but for me, it's fun. But most people, that's not true at all. And the question is, why are we doing this? And why are we so different from people in other countries?

Couldn't you make a case that there is some positive externality to a whole country working more? Because even if it is worse for every individual person in terms of life satisfaction, we get some positive externalities. We can attract capital. The most innovative companies are formed in the most productive society. We lead interesting lives by being a productive society, right?

all that does is make us monetarily richer I'm not saying cut back like crazy but if we cut back let's say 20 work time which my guess is would cut back the total amount we produced by about 10 one for two we'd still have real incomes that are higher than they were 15 years